Topic-icon Cerrahi bir bransa girmek imkansız mıdır?_Hintli bir yazardan

8 years 11 months ago #1 by umc
Guzel bir yazı, ama ardanın da dediği gibi bu daha çok Hintlilerin tecrubelerini yansıtıyor. ABD deki hıntli doktorlar tum yabancı doktor pastasının %20 sınden fazlasını olusturdugu ıcın hersey hintlilere biraz daha zor. O nedenle bu yorumun o sekilde okunmasını onerırım...

Dr Ulaş Mehmet Çamsarı

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8 years 11 months ago - 8 years 11 months ago #2 by Arda
Arkadaslar genelde hıntlılerın basvurularıyla bızım basvurularımız arasında buyuk farklar olmasına karsın bu yazıyı buraya koymak ıstıyorum.Sebebı ıse sız de okuduktan sonra goreceksınız ki cok guzel yorumlarda bulunmus yazar.

Kaynak : aippg
Baglantı adresi :

OF COURSE it is possible for an Indian to enter the US Surgery match (or pre-match) for a spot in the upcoming surgery class.

First some background about me: I am an American MD, born and raised in the USA. Well, one of the reasons why I am reading so intently into the advise of THIS FORUM is because my contract was not renewed on July 1, 2008!

I graduated from medical school in 2006 and I decided the SURGERY was my "passion," but i never considered how draining that lifestyle was on the rest of my life. During my 3rd and 4th years of med school, there was an Indian guy in his 4th/5th year of residency. We'll just call him ROGER for simplicity's sake.

And, just like anyone else in his position, you didn't even need to talk to Roger EVER--because Roger was NOT friendly, he did NOT enjoy conversations, and WORST OF ALL acted in a manner that seemed as though he was superior to the other residents, and to me it was even apparent that he felt superior to his ATTENDINGS as well!

HEY, since I'm full of good information about US surgery for IMGS, YOU must be my Indian FRIEND and PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS SUPERIORITY THAT 'ROGER' DEMONSTRATED--it was so bad that he couldn't even sit at the same lunch table with other (non-Indian) residents.

but instead of realizing that Roger was strange or different (or insecure about his lack of knowldge), I assumed that "this (Indian) guy is either REALLY SMART and GOOD at what he does, or he is some other type of complete Badass!" Yet he never talked... He graduated from the program (despite NEVER having passed an ABSITE exam) and is working on his Cardi-Thoracic/Vascular Fellowship NOT at the hospital where he trained.

Later, on my own interview trail, I learned a few 'secret' details about his ast. First, I learned that MY PROGRAM was *NOT* his first respidency training. As a resident, he was mentally capable, made good decisions, was good with his hands, but he HATED to be bothered with anything work-related! But worst of all, he is was absolutely TERRIBLE at taking standard multiple choice question tests...

I learned Roger was forced to resign from his first surgery residency program because he simply could NOT pass Step 3. Plus, he consistenty scored in the ZEROITH PERCENTILE (0%ile) on the test all surgery residents take in January called the ABSITE (the american board of surgery in-training exam), and BY THE WAY, you should start studying for it me for resources and direction.
For someone to score in the ZEROith percentile, that means 100% of the other test-takers DID BETTER THAN HIM!!! Believe it or not, this actually INCLUDES the occasional heroin addict, the drunk, stoned or high participants, as well as THE ONES WHO FALL ASLEEP DURING THE TEST! I think it was HIS problem, but it might also have been a cultural bias that Americans could better understand...

there are some important things to consider in looking for programs.

1. location. Look to the SOUTHERN states:
West Virginia (by the way, MARSHALL in WV has a GREAT record of giving underprivileged folks a chance at success),
north carolina
south carolina

^^^THIS is your list of states. Also feel free to add any FMG-friendly programs, ethnically diverse communities, or impoverished communities who desperately need healthcare--and the government is willing to PAY for their medical care, but there just aren't enough doctors in the area! I have heard that several of the New York City hospitals are accomodating to foreign graduates.

Apparently MY hospital was very IMG-friendly. PM me and I'll get you the information.

2. Programs that are seriously considering adding additional resident positions
GOLDMINE: a city with a fast-growing POOR community
or a recent natural 'disaster' area.

3. Based on my limited experience with 'Roger,' I have to recommend Programs that do NOT require you pass the ABSITE every year---even better, ones that do NOT require you to EVER pass it----unless of course it really WAS Roger's ignorance (and not built-in testing biases) that caused him to have so much trouble with the testing.

4. If you have the time, seek out faculty with Indian names (for an Indian applicant). If you manage THIS, then be completely and totally 100% honest during your interview. This is ONE TIME you do NOT want to give perfect, trite, pre-packaged, positive little answers. YOUR STRONGEST ASSET WILL BE THE DIRECT EMOTIONAL APPEAL THAT YOU MANAGE TO ELICIT IN THIS INTERVIEWER. Emmy-winning songs are written, Wars are waged, fortunes spent on cars, luxuries, houses, and wine not because of logical mental-computer-work! IT'S EMOTIONS...TUG AT THE HEARTSTRINGS... You will be AMAZED at how sympathetic they will be to you! Not only do you have MANY cultural commonalities, but if you are polite and well-dressed there's always an element of the interviewer SEEING HIMSELF IN YOU!

During these kinds of interviews, be waiting for them to ask "do you have any questions for me?" Tell them that you really admire the facilities, how that it is your dream to operate, but I am MOST CONCERNED and insecure about MYSELF and need to how I come across on my interviews...what i should change? and what should i keep the same. THIS IS OK CONVERSATION WITH MEMBERS OF YOUR SAME MINORITY IMMIGRANT-RACE!!! You are only 2 more signatures to becoming part of this guy's FAMILY! Because trust me---when you get the job, he will treat you like his own son or maybe even try to interest you in his daughter! (just kidding)

7. aside from finding Indian faculty, you should also be applying to any traditionally minority-only programs. While these programs have accepted people from ALL ethnic heritages for a long time, they still have a "CURSE" of segregation that follows these institutions. For this reason, places like Morehouse REMAINS almost exclusively black (african-american). If a white suburbanite kid walks into their admissions office saying he wants to be a doctor, they will MAKE IT HAPPEN! (scholarships, waving tests, ignoring the MCAT, giving them special tutoring).

It is my understanding that these all-black university programs remain almost entirely black... and NO AMERICANS want to see this happen! why, everytime we look at that college, we're reminded of segregation. Everytime a recent graduate tells someone where he received his diploma, he might be applying pressure to a sore nerve in his own heart.

Similarly, you should focus INTENSELY on programs where the program director is the opposite sex from you. if you're male, then FOCUS ON THE FEMALE PROGRAM DIRECTORS! they have essentially ALL the power, but underneath it all, we're all just animals trying to survive, right?

5. YOUR ENGLISH SKILL IS THE SINGLE-MOST IMPORTANT SKILL OR ATTRIBUTE THAT YOU HAVE. Your English is more important than your science or even medical knowledge... i know it sucks, just accept it and WORK ON IT. instead of wasting your time studying for step 1 or 2, you should be LISTENING to a tape-player (or MP3player) with headphones all day long, every news broadcasts or even shows with a plot like Seinfeld...the most IMPORTANT thing is for your mind to grasp and define EXACTLY WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENT SOUNDS that Americans make compared to you & your friends? (and 99% of remaining English-speaking Indians).

***HEY, I'VE GOT THE BEST IDEA FOR YOU!! In Bangledore (the technology-center of India?)--lmost every large American company outsources customer service calls to Indian respresentatives working in Bangledore.

First you must realize that most Americans have NO TOLERANCE for unintelligible, awkward wording or thick foreign accents. Callers simply CANNOT KNOW they are speaking to an Indian for technical issues customer support/whateever. SO TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM, the companies who provide the telephone operators have developed the most sofisticated and effective accent-removal classes.

These classes are SO GOOD that AMERICANS BELIEVE ENGLISH IS YOUR NATIVE TONGUE and assume you live in the US!! And they also give themselves names like Chip, Dave, Mike, etc. IF THERE IS ANYWAY POSSIBLE THAT YOU CAN GET INVOLVED---either take a job for the free training--or just SIT IN ON SOME OF THESE 'ACCENT-REMOVAL' CLASSES, YOU REALLY SHOULD DO IT!! IN THE LONG RUN IT WOULD BE WORTH A LOT OF MONEY TO YOU IN JOB-OPPORTUNITIES. But in the meantime, I suggest listening to audio recordings of conversational AMERICAN english, television shows, or movies. And listen to the SAME TAPES over and over, until you can recite the words alongside the actors. Being bilingual is nice, but it carries very LITTLE water compared to a bilingual who has NO TRACES OF RESIDUAL ACCENT!!! Imagine the possibilities--an interviewer basically think of you as NOT being an FMG. (i know this because EVERY FMG I've ever known has very thick accents, but they do not CARE about getting better. Why should they get better? they can understand what people say already. others can understand what they say as well.

WHEN MEETING OR INTERVIEWING NEW PEOPLE, PEOPLE TEND TO IDENTIFY WITH THOSE PEOPLE WHO THEY SHARE SIMILAR HOBBIES, INTERESTS, CAREERS, RELIGOUS BELIEFS, SHARE FAVORITE BOOKS, LOVE THE SAME ROCK BAND, PLAY THE SAME INSTRUMENT, PLAY THE SAME SPORT, AND THIS INSTANTANEOUS CONNECTION BETWEEN STRANGERS IS ONLY ALLOWED TO OCCUR IF THERE'S SOMETHING INTERESTING ENOUGH ABOUT THIS OTHER PERSON THAT I CAN POSTPONE MY AFTERNOON (censored : junk) SESSION! EVERYONE WANTS TO BE 'IMPORTANT,' 'TASTEFUL,' CLASSY---SO WHAT BETTER QUALITIES TO FIND IN SOMONE ELSE THAN *SIMILARITIES WITH YOURSELF*?? Even if the interviewer says that he has a 5 YEAR OLD SON...if YOU then inform the interview that you LIKEWISE also have a 5 yeAR OLD SON! When this happens, suddenly the awkward walls of non-communication come crumbling down. I know it sounds silly, but NOW--now that your interviewer can ask you about potty-training or tying his son's shoelaces--you can finally begin to address the REAL reason why you're both there. You want a surgery residency and he wants to make sure he isn't responsible for hiring a resident who didn't do his work, who doesn't get along with others, or who gets in trouble for acting unprofessionally to attendings in other specialties.

All applicants speak English, so this doesn't constitute a 'common bond.'

**REMEMBER EARLIER WHEN I TOLD YOU THAT YOU SHOULD SEEK OUT SOME FELLOW INDIAN-AMERICAN FACULTY?? This is the EXACT same principle!! They SHARE something with you that is obvious to anyone. This is also why the BEST JOB OPPORTUNITIES come from when your friend who already works for the company recommends you for the position. So remember this and seek out other RESIDENTS with a similar background as you have. What you will soon realize is that sharing a common background will lead to you both having the SAME SENSE OF HUMOR and you'll also experience IDENTICAL INTERNAL REACTIONS TO: BEING CUT-OFF BY A POOR DRIVER, STRESS OF MED SCHOOL, LACK OF SLEEP, BEING CALLED AT 2AM BY A NURSE WHO WANTST TO ASK YOU SOMETHING *STUPID*...anything and eveything up to listening to the complaining, spoiled shallow stupidity of "ANNOYING WHITE GIRLS,"

I also knew another Indian FMG who did surgery and he was PHENOMENAL! He is doing a laparoscopic fellowship now.

And I also know ANOTHER Indian FMG surgical resident who also graduated successfully. I really liked her. She taught me a great deal about technique and some advanced ICU ventilator managment. She was a very quiet person so her accent was not NEARLY as noticeable as some of the other FMGs. also, once i got to know her, i realized that she had many unpopular beliefs that might have made attendings dislike her, but since she was so quiet, she never mentioned anything to anyone above her about her own life, her opinions on stuff BESIDES patient management, etc. One problem she had is that she could not understand that when attendings yelled and screamed, they are usually just expressing anger and frustration--like a 3 year old would behave during a tantrum..with no malicious intent 95% of the time. But she ALWAYS took these angry or loud displays personally. As a result she was frequently unhappy and often started crying because of the combined stresses (patient-management stress PLUS surgical error stress PLUS stress from being persecuted by one's superiors). But nothing I ever said to her would actually ease her mind. Don't ever be upset by someone yelling. And GUARD YOUR PRIVACY. In the US, people talk about everybody else behind their backs, telling the worst of everythin, so Be very hesitant to share details about your life that reveal your religious views, the condition of your homeland, and especially not the way you hate the US government.

Get serious and be FIRM AND REAL/HONEST WITH YOURSELF BEFORE you come to America...think about your position on important issues that are LARGER than you! Like how you want to help people to feel better and live longer, healthier lives. You should come to some kind of decision on how vocal (OR SILENT) you will be concerning your political beliefs, the greater attachment you feel to your home country compared to the US, and basically your all-around DISAGREEMENT with selfish, mindless, habitual, ignorant, polluting, wasteful, disgusting, oppressive, bigoted, obese, racist Americans. Another thing you need to think about is your faith (of lack of faith) in religion, spirituality and all the religious culture that is COMMON in your home country, but MIGHT seem strange or 'weird' to someone who lives in a totally different country with different beliefs who are usually IGNORANT. So WHAT YOU NEED TO DO IS TAKE YOUR FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS AND OPINIONS ON ANY AND *EVERYTHING* I JUST MENTIONED AND YOU NEED TO VOW TO *NEVER* DISCUSS THESE ASPECTS OF YOURSELF. Ever. Just avoid any and all conversations of the sort.

You want to be 'labeled' and identified by the quality of your work and the effectiveness with which you treat patients. It is EASY for someone to falsely categorize a person based on beliefs, opinions, politics, religion, whether they drink alcohol, whether they have tattoos, etc.

By guarding your personal opinions, political and national ideas, and your private details, I believe that you can put yourself in a position where HONESTY, WORK ETHIC, PRECISION, JUDGMENT, COOL UNDER PRESSURE CAN "DEFINE" YOU!

All Americans love to CLAIM to be open-minded and INSIST they are not racist. They have NO prejudice. They accept all races and creeds of people EQUALLY without any negative associations...

----have you picked up on a repeating theme here???
basically, in order to receive your highest potential for trust, freindship, and love from ANYONE, you must maximize the similarities between you and the other person.

for example:
do you ever feel 'connected' to someone just knowing they graduated from high school in the same year you did---over 30 years ago, at a different school, and in different states?

Pretend that you are visiting a European country and all the people you see, everyone you talk to, everyone you interact with are NATIVES of this country where you're simply VISITING...SUDDENLY, OUT OF NOWHERE, YOU SEE AN INDIAN MAN WHO LOOKS LOST OR CONFUSED OR IN NEED OF YOUR HELP.

Do you feel a special BOND with this Indian man?? (sure you do, but why? is it because you feel this 'bond' with ALL Indian men?? hell no, it's because of your own egocentric, proximity-limited sensory impression of whatever environment we find ourselves at present.

In essence, we really DO create our own world! We create our discoveries and define how unique or unusual or special or talented we are. We think that we care about our neighbors and even our cousins and nephews. We even create that we care about "the homeless." In reality, we are all just MESMERIZED by our OWN MAGNIFICENCE. Being hypnotized with self-importance is the reason most of us are completely unaware of our own surroundings.

Remember Roger? his accent was so thick that i could never understand him. despite him being so BAD in contradicting SO MANY NUGGETS OF MY OWN ADVICE TO YOU should tell you something. You really never know about a program until you research & experience it. And THERE is ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT EACH PROGRAM SIMPLY DOES NOT CARE ABOUT!!

To give you an idea of the competition of general surgery, i graduated from an MD program in the US. I applied to 60 programs through the match system. Out of those 60, I managed to get about 15 or 17 interviews...and in the end, the program I was matched up with was my VERY LAST CHOICE----therefore, only 1 of 15 interviews actually wanted me as a resident!

There are plenty of things to increase your chances. You MUST rotate with any program you're serious about for a month or so and meet as many faculty as possible.

If you don't match on your first try (or scramble), then i think you should either do research for a year, maybe 2 years while looking for a residency opening, OR you can try another less-involved surgical career like OB-GYN.

anyways, i hope i didn't scare too many people off with this mega post.
The following user(s) said Thank You: barisk

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